Gentlemen’s clubs

Valchloesmall Anne here, musing today on the question of clubs. Gentlemen's clubs, for the most part, though not exclusively. It's one of the side alleys one gets lured down when writing a historical; your hero  is meeting his friends for dinner at his club, and before you know it you're wondering, yes, but which club? And you trawl through the various historical sources and the possibilities. Mostly what I do is write something like "He walked into the XXXX club and…" and later fill in the XXXX.

 

But inevitably, at some stage you have to return to that part of the manuscript and and decide which club. Will I use a real historical club, or shall I make one up to suit my purpose? 

C7670

There are plenty of precedents in literature for making it up. P.G. Wodehouse invented the Drones Club, where Bertie Wooster popped in to avoid Aunts and other undesirables, and the Junior Ganymede Club which was for gentlemen's gentlemen (valets). Dorothy Sayers invented the Egotists Club, and Arthur Conan Doyle created several fictitious clubs in his Sherlock Holmes' stories, most famously the Diogenes Club. There are many more.


And then there are the actual historical clubs, the three most famous in Regency times being Whites (established  in 1693), Brooks's (1764), and Boodles (1762). There was also Watiers, which was started by the Prince Regent and named for his chef, who ran it, and the Cocoa Tree Club, (whose chocolate house origin is obvious) and many others. 400px-White's

 

White's  at 37-38 St. James St. began as a chocolate house owned by an Italian named Francesco Bianco  who Anglicized his name to Francis White. Whites became famous for its bow window, built in 1811, where Brummel and his cronies sat and ogled any pretty female who wandered by. I say 'females' because no proper young lady would dream of walking down St. James's St.

 

Whites' was so exclusive that it was claimed that when an heir to a great family was born, the child's name was put down for membership at Whites before his birth was even was registered. Its members have included Beau Brummel and Baron Alvanley, Horace Walpole Edward VII, Evelyn Waugh, David Niven and the current Prince of Wales.


BrooksRowlandsonPuginBrooks's at 60 St. James St,  was founded in 1764 by 27 rich young men, four of them dukes. They were young, rich, outrageous and wild, and the club soon became known for wildness and high stakes gambling. It was also the most political of the clubs, and to this day the members of Brooks's are a force in the land.  

 

Brook's was originally kept by a man called Almack (yes, that Almack — some sources claim he was actually named William Macall but reversed the syllables of his unfashionably Scottish name to become Almack) but it was taken over by his former employee, Brooks, whose name it still bears, when Almack established the famous Assembly Rooms — which you should note, also encouraged gambling, this time for both genders. [Above: The interior of a gaming room at Brooks's, Rowlandson and Pugin, 1808.]

 

Boodles, at 28 St. James St, was, by contrast, the club with a reputation for attracting country squires and the "fox hunting set". 

In practice many gentlemen would be members of a number of clubs, and it was not simply for gambling that men gathered there. A man's club was a home away from home, a place where he could escape his wife, his mistress, and his creditors, where he could while away the evening in convivial company, and get a good plain dinner and a comfortable bed for the night. 

Many of the early clubs began life as coffee and chocolate-drinking houses in the  17th century, over time becoming meeting places for people of similar political persuasion, and at various times were regarded as hotbed of political sedition; indeed the Cocoa Tree was once considered the headquarters of the Jacobite Party. Ladygodinaprint

What most clubs had in common was gambling, which was illegal outside of members-only establishments. Chocolate and coffee houses were open to anyone with the money to pay, and since young gentlemen with fat purses attracted men eager to relieve them off their fortunes— by fair means or foul— clubs, with  exclusive entry criteria, were seen as a solution. So while aristocratic parents might deplore their sons' gambling, they comforted themselves with the reflection that in establishments like 'gentlemen's clubs' they could be sure the play was fair (the gentlemanly code of honor ensured that,) so that if their sons were to be fleeced, it would be by a gentleman, at least.

It was more than that, of course. The private 'code of conduct' ensured that the club was a place where men could discuss business in private, and off the record.'Many a political and business deal has been brokered over a long dinner at the club, and the practice still continues today.

Exclusivity always brings a certain cachet to any establishment, and at a time when men with 'new money' were trying to push their way into the upper classes, the clubs had a quietly elegant and ruthless way of keeping newcomers out. Members had to be elected –  a man would be proposed for membership by one or more members, then each member would vote in a secret ballot by dropping a white ball or a black ball into a receptacle. All it took was one black ball for a man to be denied membership — the origin of the term "to be black-balled." The Garrick Club justified it thus: "it would be better that ten unobjectionable men should be excluded than one terrible bore should be admitted."

The response to this was the proliferation of clubs that developed during the Victorian era, but as always, the most exclusive clubs remained the most desirable, and the inner workings of the most exclusive clubs remains secret.

12_melbourne_club The notion of exclusive gentlemen's clubs spread across the Atlantic and also downunder. In my home city, we have The Melbourne Club, established in 1839. It's long been considered the headquarters of the conservative establishment and its influence reaches Australia wide. The US has its own similar clubs;  the  Knickerbocker Club, of New York, founded in 1871, the Pacific-Union Club in San Francisco, the California Club in Los Angeles, Union Club and the Somerset Club in Boston.

In the early years of the 20th century women's clubs were established and many still exist today. I visited one in Melbourne once, the Lyceum Club, which was established in Melbourne in 1912, though there are Lyceum clubs in many parts of the world.  Membership is restricted to women graduates and other women who have distinguished themselves in art, music, literature, philanthropy or public service. I had a wonderful dinner in the restaurant there with two members, and was charmed and impressed by the library, which has a whole section devoted to books written by its members — some of the great female writers of the past century. There was something wonderfully personal about it, and the visit made me understand the appeal of a club — it's much homier than a hotel. 

Reform  But I've gone off track, as is usual with me, when I get caught up in research. I need a club for my "devil riders" (Rafe, Luke, Harry and Gabe) to meet in. I don't want it to be one of the main clubs — I'm thinking of a place where young men would go, not to be fashionable, or to gamble excessively, nor to relive old soldier stories — I imagine they'd avoid that like the plague — but somewhere to stay when in London, a home away from home, a masculine retreat.

So I'm asking for help — any suggestions for a club for my guys to meet in?  Should it be real or fictional? If fictional I want a name and a thumbnail sketch of what it's like. No prizes, but if your name takes my fancy I'll use it in my book and credit you with it.

Otherwise, are you a member of any club? A tennis club, a book club — it doesn't matter. What is your club and why do you like being a member of it? 

115 thoughts on “Gentlemen’s clubs”

  1. This was really interesting, I’ve wondered about the gentlemen’s clubs that are mentioned in novels.
    Not sure about a name or a place for this one-but I do like that you are asking your readers for ideas (like with the cats too). It is pretty cool!
    I belong to two ‘clubs’. My mom, aunt, cousins and I meet once a month for lunch at an unusual restaurant in town so that we can catch up. Otherwise, life gets in the way, you know? We call it SIS Day for Sisters in Spirit:)
    My group of friends from college do something similar and we call ourselves a friend sorority. We had a mock induction and everything-it was a blast. Still is!

    Reply
  2. This was really interesting, I’ve wondered about the gentlemen’s clubs that are mentioned in novels.
    Not sure about a name or a place for this one-but I do like that you are asking your readers for ideas (like with the cats too). It is pretty cool!
    I belong to two ‘clubs’. My mom, aunt, cousins and I meet once a month for lunch at an unusual restaurant in town so that we can catch up. Otherwise, life gets in the way, you know? We call it SIS Day for Sisters in Spirit:)
    My group of friends from college do something similar and we call ourselves a friend sorority. We had a mock induction and everything-it was a blast. Still is!

    Reply
  3. This was really interesting, I’ve wondered about the gentlemen’s clubs that are mentioned in novels.
    Not sure about a name or a place for this one-but I do like that you are asking your readers for ideas (like with the cats too). It is pretty cool!
    I belong to two ‘clubs’. My mom, aunt, cousins and I meet once a month for lunch at an unusual restaurant in town so that we can catch up. Otherwise, life gets in the way, you know? We call it SIS Day for Sisters in Spirit:)
    My group of friends from college do something similar and we call ourselves a friend sorority. We had a mock induction and everything-it was a blast. Still is!

    Reply
  4. This was really interesting, I’ve wondered about the gentlemen’s clubs that are mentioned in novels.
    Not sure about a name or a place for this one-but I do like that you are asking your readers for ideas (like with the cats too). It is pretty cool!
    I belong to two ‘clubs’. My mom, aunt, cousins and I meet once a month for lunch at an unusual restaurant in town so that we can catch up. Otherwise, life gets in the way, you know? We call it SIS Day for Sisters in Spirit:)
    My group of friends from college do something similar and we call ourselves a friend sorority. We had a mock induction and everything-it was a blast. Still is!

    Reply
  5. This was really interesting, I’ve wondered about the gentlemen’s clubs that are mentioned in novels.
    Not sure about a name or a place for this one-but I do like that you are asking your readers for ideas (like with the cats too). It is pretty cool!
    I belong to two ‘clubs’. My mom, aunt, cousins and I meet once a month for lunch at an unusual restaurant in town so that we can catch up. Otherwise, life gets in the way, you know? We call it SIS Day for Sisters in Spirit:)
    My group of friends from college do something similar and we call ourselves a friend sorority. We had a mock induction and everything-it was a blast. Still is!

    Reply
  6. Liz, I love the sound of your SIS day and your friends sorority. A mock induction? Fabulous. What did you do?
    I have two friends who I regularly get together with and we’ve been doing it since we were at high school. That’s pretty special, too, I think.

    Reply
  7. Liz, I love the sound of your SIS day and your friends sorority. A mock induction? Fabulous. What did you do?
    I have two friends who I regularly get together with and we’ve been doing it since we were at high school. That’s pretty special, too, I think.

    Reply
  8. Liz, I love the sound of your SIS day and your friends sorority. A mock induction? Fabulous. What did you do?
    I have two friends who I regularly get together with and we’ve been doing it since we were at high school. That’s pretty special, too, I think.

    Reply
  9. Liz, I love the sound of your SIS day and your friends sorority. A mock induction? Fabulous. What did you do?
    I have two friends who I regularly get together with and we’ve been doing it since we were at high school. That’s pretty special, too, I think.

    Reply
  10. Liz, I love the sound of your SIS day and your friends sorority. A mock induction? Fabulous. What did you do?
    I have two friends who I regularly get together with and we’ve been doing it since we were at high school. That’s pretty special, too, I think.

    Reply
  11. Stephanie Laurens made up her Bastion Club, and you can too!
    For several years when I lived in Virginia, I was a member of a Junior Women’s Club. Believe me, I’m not JWC material, but I was their token Yankee and they tried fruitlessly to make a lady out of me. Presently I run a teen girls’ book club at the high school I work at, but I belong to nothing else currently and I’m quite happy about that.:)

    Reply
  12. Stephanie Laurens made up her Bastion Club, and you can too!
    For several years when I lived in Virginia, I was a member of a Junior Women’s Club. Believe me, I’m not JWC material, but I was their token Yankee and they tried fruitlessly to make a lady out of me. Presently I run a teen girls’ book club at the high school I work at, but I belong to nothing else currently and I’m quite happy about that.:)

    Reply
  13. Stephanie Laurens made up her Bastion Club, and you can too!
    For several years when I lived in Virginia, I was a member of a Junior Women’s Club. Believe me, I’m not JWC material, but I was their token Yankee and they tried fruitlessly to make a lady out of me. Presently I run a teen girls’ book club at the high school I work at, but I belong to nothing else currently and I’m quite happy about that.:)

    Reply
  14. Stephanie Laurens made up her Bastion Club, and you can too!
    For several years when I lived in Virginia, I was a member of a Junior Women’s Club. Believe me, I’m not JWC material, but I was their token Yankee and they tried fruitlessly to make a lady out of me. Presently I run a teen girls’ book club at the high school I work at, but I belong to nothing else currently and I’m quite happy about that.:)

    Reply
  15. Stephanie Laurens made up her Bastion Club, and you can too!
    For several years when I lived in Virginia, I was a member of a Junior Women’s Club. Believe me, I’m not JWC material, but I was their token Yankee and they tried fruitlessly to make a lady out of me. Presently I run a teen girls’ book club at the high school I work at, but I belong to nothing else currently and I’m quite happy about that.:)

    Reply
  16. I really did enjoy that post Anne and I am so looking forward to the next book can’t wait to read it.
    I don’t have a very good imagination but perhaps you could start a club for them called The Riders Club and use a nice Town House in London that they could use and friends as well. Sorry I don’t have any pictures.
    As for clubs I belong to I am a member of the Australian Romance Readers Association that I joined when I went to the conference in Melbourne in Feb and a few of us have got together for lunch here in Sydney a couple of times, it is so great getting together with other people that read romance and we can discuss new authors and recommend books to each other.
    Have Fun
    Helen

    Reply
  17. I really did enjoy that post Anne and I am so looking forward to the next book can’t wait to read it.
    I don’t have a very good imagination but perhaps you could start a club for them called The Riders Club and use a nice Town House in London that they could use and friends as well. Sorry I don’t have any pictures.
    As for clubs I belong to I am a member of the Australian Romance Readers Association that I joined when I went to the conference in Melbourne in Feb and a few of us have got together for lunch here in Sydney a couple of times, it is so great getting together with other people that read romance and we can discuss new authors and recommend books to each other.
    Have Fun
    Helen

    Reply
  18. I really did enjoy that post Anne and I am so looking forward to the next book can’t wait to read it.
    I don’t have a very good imagination but perhaps you could start a club for them called The Riders Club and use a nice Town House in London that they could use and friends as well. Sorry I don’t have any pictures.
    As for clubs I belong to I am a member of the Australian Romance Readers Association that I joined when I went to the conference in Melbourne in Feb and a few of us have got together for lunch here in Sydney a couple of times, it is so great getting together with other people that read romance and we can discuss new authors and recommend books to each other.
    Have Fun
    Helen

    Reply
  19. I really did enjoy that post Anne and I am so looking forward to the next book can’t wait to read it.
    I don’t have a very good imagination but perhaps you could start a club for them called The Riders Club and use a nice Town House in London that they could use and friends as well. Sorry I don’t have any pictures.
    As for clubs I belong to I am a member of the Australian Romance Readers Association that I joined when I went to the conference in Melbourne in Feb and a few of us have got together for lunch here in Sydney a couple of times, it is so great getting together with other people that read romance and we can discuss new authors and recommend books to each other.
    Have Fun
    Helen

    Reply
  20. I really did enjoy that post Anne and I am so looking forward to the next book can’t wait to read it.
    I don’t have a very good imagination but perhaps you could start a club for them called The Riders Club and use a nice Town House in London that they could use and friends as well. Sorry I don’t have any pictures.
    As for clubs I belong to I am a member of the Australian Romance Readers Association that I joined when I went to the conference in Melbourne in Feb and a few of us have got together for lunch here in Sydney a couple of times, it is so great getting together with other people that read romance and we can discuss new authors and recommend books to each other.
    Have Fun
    Helen

    Reply
  21. I am a member of 2 dogs clubs, one for the area that I live in and one that is breed specific. I don’t get a lot of the “warm fuzzies” as members of these clubs, just a lot of work it seems. I am also “not a member” of a “Not a Club”. We meet weekly to practice agility, and we like it. We like that it is not a club, so there are no meetings, no membership dues. All we do is agility. That is my kind of “non-club”

    Reply
  22. I am a member of 2 dogs clubs, one for the area that I live in and one that is breed specific. I don’t get a lot of the “warm fuzzies” as members of these clubs, just a lot of work it seems. I am also “not a member” of a “Not a Club”. We meet weekly to practice agility, and we like it. We like that it is not a club, so there are no meetings, no membership dues. All we do is agility. That is my kind of “non-club”

    Reply
  23. I am a member of 2 dogs clubs, one for the area that I live in and one that is breed specific. I don’t get a lot of the “warm fuzzies” as members of these clubs, just a lot of work it seems. I am also “not a member” of a “Not a Club”. We meet weekly to practice agility, and we like it. We like that it is not a club, so there are no meetings, no membership dues. All we do is agility. That is my kind of “non-club”

    Reply
  24. I am a member of 2 dogs clubs, one for the area that I live in and one that is breed specific. I don’t get a lot of the “warm fuzzies” as members of these clubs, just a lot of work it seems. I am also “not a member” of a “Not a Club”. We meet weekly to practice agility, and we like it. We like that it is not a club, so there are no meetings, no membership dues. All we do is agility. That is my kind of “non-club”

    Reply
  25. I am a member of 2 dogs clubs, one for the area that I live in and one that is breed specific. I don’t get a lot of the “warm fuzzies” as members of these clubs, just a lot of work it seems. I am also “not a member” of a “Not a Club”. We meet weekly to practice agility, and we like it. We like that it is not a club, so there are no meetings, no membership dues. All we do is agility. That is my kind of “non-club”

    Reply
  26. Maggie, how on earth did I forget the Bastion Club — yes, of course.I think it’s brilliant that you run a teen book club — it’s fabulous to talk books with kids.
    Helen, thanks for the suggestion, I’ll keep it in mind. It’s great to hear your reading club is still going.
    Piper I suspect Dod clubs would be a lot of work — really anyone who is in the organizing seat of clubs gets to do a lot of the work with not a lot of the joy. But I do like the sound of your Not-a-Club. No rules, no dues, no responsibility — bliss.

    Reply
  27. Maggie, how on earth did I forget the Bastion Club — yes, of course.I think it’s brilliant that you run a teen book club — it’s fabulous to talk books with kids.
    Helen, thanks for the suggestion, I’ll keep it in mind. It’s great to hear your reading club is still going.
    Piper I suspect Dod clubs would be a lot of work — really anyone who is in the organizing seat of clubs gets to do a lot of the work with not a lot of the joy. But I do like the sound of your Not-a-Club. No rules, no dues, no responsibility — bliss.

    Reply
  28. Maggie, how on earth did I forget the Bastion Club — yes, of course.I think it’s brilliant that you run a teen book club — it’s fabulous to talk books with kids.
    Helen, thanks for the suggestion, I’ll keep it in mind. It’s great to hear your reading club is still going.
    Piper I suspect Dod clubs would be a lot of work — really anyone who is in the organizing seat of clubs gets to do a lot of the work with not a lot of the joy. But I do like the sound of your Not-a-Club. No rules, no dues, no responsibility — bliss.

    Reply
  29. Maggie, how on earth did I forget the Bastion Club — yes, of course.I think it’s brilliant that you run a teen book club — it’s fabulous to talk books with kids.
    Helen, thanks for the suggestion, I’ll keep it in mind. It’s great to hear your reading club is still going.
    Piper I suspect Dod clubs would be a lot of work — really anyone who is in the organizing seat of clubs gets to do a lot of the work with not a lot of the joy. But I do like the sound of your Not-a-Club. No rules, no dues, no responsibility — bliss.

    Reply
  30. Maggie, how on earth did I forget the Bastion Club — yes, of course.I think it’s brilliant that you run a teen book club — it’s fabulous to talk books with kids.
    Helen, thanks for the suggestion, I’ll keep it in mind. It’s great to hear your reading club is still going.
    Piper I suspect Dod clubs would be a lot of work — really anyone who is in the organizing seat of clubs gets to do a lot of the work with not a lot of the joy. But I do like the sound of your Not-a-Club. No rules, no dues, no responsibility — bliss.

    Reply
  31. Great post, Anne! I’m a big fan of invention as long as it’s not out of line with the probabilities of the time.
    My thoughts turned to classical names. Perhaps the Poseidon Club, because he gave the horse to mankind. Or the Hermes, since he was the messenger, and mounted officers sometimes did courier duty on battlefields like Waterloo.
    Or a bit less classical–the Charioteer club. Whatever the name, it would for young sporting gentlemn more interested in the physical activities than the gambling. Hence, riders and drivers. I’d put them in a townhouse near Tattersall’s, so they could amble over to look at what horses were coming up for sale. And the portions of food served in the dining room would be famously large, since young males are always hungry. 🙂
    Mary Jo

    Reply
  32. Great post, Anne! I’m a big fan of invention as long as it’s not out of line with the probabilities of the time.
    My thoughts turned to classical names. Perhaps the Poseidon Club, because he gave the horse to mankind. Or the Hermes, since he was the messenger, and mounted officers sometimes did courier duty on battlefields like Waterloo.
    Or a bit less classical–the Charioteer club. Whatever the name, it would for young sporting gentlemn more interested in the physical activities than the gambling. Hence, riders and drivers. I’d put them in a townhouse near Tattersall’s, so they could amble over to look at what horses were coming up for sale. And the portions of food served in the dining room would be famously large, since young males are always hungry. 🙂
    Mary Jo

    Reply
  33. Great post, Anne! I’m a big fan of invention as long as it’s not out of line with the probabilities of the time.
    My thoughts turned to classical names. Perhaps the Poseidon Club, because he gave the horse to mankind. Or the Hermes, since he was the messenger, and mounted officers sometimes did courier duty on battlefields like Waterloo.
    Or a bit less classical–the Charioteer club. Whatever the name, it would for young sporting gentlemn more interested in the physical activities than the gambling. Hence, riders and drivers. I’d put them in a townhouse near Tattersall’s, so they could amble over to look at what horses were coming up for sale. And the portions of food served in the dining room would be famously large, since young males are always hungry. 🙂
    Mary Jo

    Reply
  34. Great post, Anne! I’m a big fan of invention as long as it’s not out of line with the probabilities of the time.
    My thoughts turned to classical names. Perhaps the Poseidon Club, because he gave the horse to mankind. Or the Hermes, since he was the messenger, and mounted officers sometimes did courier duty on battlefields like Waterloo.
    Or a bit less classical–the Charioteer club. Whatever the name, it would for young sporting gentlemn more interested in the physical activities than the gambling. Hence, riders and drivers. I’d put them in a townhouse near Tattersall’s, so they could amble over to look at what horses were coming up for sale. And the portions of food served in the dining room would be famously large, since young males are always hungry. 🙂
    Mary Jo

    Reply
  35. Great post, Anne! I’m a big fan of invention as long as it’s not out of line with the probabilities of the time.
    My thoughts turned to classical names. Perhaps the Poseidon Club, because he gave the horse to mankind. Or the Hermes, since he was the messenger, and mounted officers sometimes did courier duty on battlefields like Waterloo.
    Or a bit less classical–the Charioteer club. Whatever the name, it would for young sporting gentlemn more interested in the physical activities than the gambling. Hence, riders and drivers. I’d put them in a townhouse near Tattersall’s, so they could amble over to look at what horses were coming up for sale. And the portions of food served in the dining room would be famously large, since young males are always hungry. 🙂
    Mary Jo

    Reply
  36. Ooh, Mary Jo, what fun suggestions. Poseidon is a little too fishy for my taste 😉 and the Hermes is too associated these days with handbags, which isn’t *quite* my heroes’ style. LOL. But I do like the Charioteer Club, since my guys have curricle races quite often. Thanks.

    Reply
  37. Ooh, Mary Jo, what fun suggestions. Poseidon is a little too fishy for my taste 😉 and the Hermes is too associated these days with handbags, which isn’t *quite* my heroes’ style. LOL. But I do like the Charioteer Club, since my guys have curricle races quite often. Thanks.

    Reply
  38. Ooh, Mary Jo, what fun suggestions. Poseidon is a little too fishy for my taste 😉 and the Hermes is too associated these days with handbags, which isn’t *quite* my heroes’ style. LOL. But I do like the Charioteer Club, since my guys have curricle races quite often. Thanks.

    Reply
  39. Ooh, Mary Jo, what fun suggestions. Poseidon is a little too fishy for my taste 😉 and the Hermes is too associated these days with handbags, which isn’t *quite* my heroes’ style. LOL. But I do like the Charioteer Club, since my guys have curricle races quite often. Thanks.

    Reply
  40. Ooh, Mary Jo, what fun suggestions. Poseidon is a little too fishy for my taste 😉 and the Hermes is too associated these days with handbags, which isn’t *quite* my heroes’ style. LOL. But I do like the Charioteer Club, since my guys have curricle races quite often. Thanks.

    Reply
  41. From what I’ve read of your Devil Riders series, I think you should make up your own club. They wouldn’t really fit into White’s (conservative old money), Brooks’s (wild, rich young men), or Boodles (country squire).
    All these men have been through the war, and have come back changed. I think the club should be for men who are breaking from tradition a little, who see things differently from their fathers.
    How about The New Century Club because they’re looking to the future, not trying to hold onto the past. Members would not necessarily have to be gentlemen. Any profession would be welcome, including scientists and engineers. I’d like to say dump the politicians, but they seem to be a necessary evil. And it wouldn’t cost an arm and a leg to join, but members would have to be elected. No matter what your club, you have to keep out the riffraff!

    Reply
  42. From what I’ve read of your Devil Riders series, I think you should make up your own club. They wouldn’t really fit into White’s (conservative old money), Brooks’s (wild, rich young men), or Boodles (country squire).
    All these men have been through the war, and have come back changed. I think the club should be for men who are breaking from tradition a little, who see things differently from their fathers.
    How about The New Century Club because they’re looking to the future, not trying to hold onto the past. Members would not necessarily have to be gentlemen. Any profession would be welcome, including scientists and engineers. I’d like to say dump the politicians, but they seem to be a necessary evil. And it wouldn’t cost an arm and a leg to join, but members would have to be elected. No matter what your club, you have to keep out the riffraff!

    Reply
  43. From what I’ve read of your Devil Riders series, I think you should make up your own club. They wouldn’t really fit into White’s (conservative old money), Brooks’s (wild, rich young men), or Boodles (country squire).
    All these men have been through the war, and have come back changed. I think the club should be for men who are breaking from tradition a little, who see things differently from their fathers.
    How about The New Century Club because they’re looking to the future, not trying to hold onto the past. Members would not necessarily have to be gentlemen. Any profession would be welcome, including scientists and engineers. I’d like to say dump the politicians, but they seem to be a necessary evil. And it wouldn’t cost an arm and a leg to join, but members would have to be elected. No matter what your club, you have to keep out the riffraff!

    Reply
  44. From what I’ve read of your Devil Riders series, I think you should make up your own club. They wouldn’t really fit into White’s (conservative old money), Brooks’s (wild, rich young men), or Boodles (country squire).
    All these men have been through the war, and have come back changed. I think the club should be for men who are breaking from tradition a little, who see things differently from their fathers.
    How about The New Century Club because they’re looking to the future, not trying to hold onto the past. Members would not necessarily have to be gentlemen. Any profession would be welcome, including scientists and engineers. I’d like to say dump the politicians, but they seem to be a necessary evil. And it wouldn’t cost an arm and a leg to join, but members would have to be elected. No matter what your club, you have to keep out the riffraff!

    Reply
  45. From what I’ve read of your Devil Riders series, I think you should make up your own club. They wouldn’t really fit into White’s (conservative old money), Brooks’s (wild, rich young men), or Boodles (country squire).
    All these men have been through the war, and have come back changed. I think the club should be for men who are breaking from tradition a little, who see things differently from their fathers.
    How about The New Century Club because they’re looking to the future, not trying to hold onto the past. Members would not necessarily have to be gentlemen. Any profession would be welcome, including scientists and engineers. I’d like to say dump the politicians, but they seem to be a necessary evil. And it wouldn’t cost an arm and a leg to join, but members would have to be elected. No matter what your club, you have to keep out the riffraff!

    Reply
  46. This explains the name and the decor of the Boodle’s bar/restaurant in Greenwich CT that my dad was matre’d and manager in the late 1970s. It was all wood paneled, green upholstery and hunting prints. I love the bits of real history you encorporate in your books, but plausible sounding fake names work well too. Thanks for researching and writing.

    Reply
  47. This explains the name and the decor of the Boodle’s bar/restaurant in Greenwich CT that my dad was matre’d and manager in the late 1970s. It was all wood paneled, green upholstery and hunting prints. I love the bits of real history you encorporate in your books, but plausible sounding fake names work well too. Thanks for researching and writing.

    Reply
  48. This explains the name and the decor of the Boodle’s bar/restaurant in Greenwich CT that my dad was matre’d and manager in the late 1970s. It was all wood paneled, green upholstery and hunting prints. I love the bits of real history you encorporate in your books, but plausible sounding fake names work well too. Thanks for researching and writing.

    Reply
  49. This explains the name and the decor of the Boodle’s bar/restaurant in Greenwich CT that my dad was matre’d and manager in the late 1970s. It was all wood paneled, green upholstery and hunting prints. I love the bits of real history you encorporate in your books, but plausible sounding fake names work well too. Thanks for researching and writing.

    Reply
  50. This explains the name and the decor of the Boodle’s bar/restaurant in Greenwich CT that my dad was matre’d and manager in the late 1970s. It was all wood paneled, green upholstery and hunting prints. I love the bits of real history you encorporate in your books, but plausible sounding fake names work well too. Thanks for researching and writing.

    Reply
  51. Linda, your reasoning is spot on. It was because my guys don’t seem right for White’s, Brooks’s, etc that I started thinking about alternatives. As well, there is the question of who else they’d run into. Of course, they would belong to those other clubs, but they wouldn’t be their first preference for a cosy evening with friends.
    And they’d definitely keep out the riff raff! Can you imagine what a magnet a club full of rich young men would be to con-men and card-sharps?
    Lyn, what fun that your father managed a US Boodle’s. Thanks for joining in the conversation.

    Reply
  52. Linda, your reasoning is spot on. It was because my guys don’t seem right for White’s, Brooks’s, etc that I started thinking about alternatives. As well, there is the question of who else they’d run into. Of course, they would belong to those other clubs, but they wouldn’t be their first preference for a cosy evening with friends.
    And they’d definitely keep out the riff raff! Can you imagine what a magnet a club full of rich young men would be to con-men and card-sharps?
    Lyn, what fun that your father managed a US Boodle’s. Thanks for joining in the conversation.

    Reply
  53. Linda, your reasoning is spot on. It was because my guys don’t seem right for White’s, Brooks’s, etc that I started thinking about alternatives. As well, there is the question of who else they’d run into. Of course, they would belong to those other clubs, but they wouldn’t be their first preference for a cosy evening with friends.
    And they’d definitely keep out the riff raff! Can you imagine what a magnet a club full of rich young men would be to con-men and card-sharps?
    Lyn, what fun that your father managed a US Boodle’s. Thanks for joining in the conversation.

    Reply
  54. Linda, your reasoning is spot on. It was because my guys don’t seem right for White’s, Brooks’s, etc that I started thinking about alternatives. As well, there is the question of who else they’d run into. Of course, they would belong to those other clubs, but they wouldn’t be their first preference for a cosy evening with friends.
    And they’d definitely keep out the riff raff! Can you imagine what a magnet a club full of rich young men would be to con-men and card-sharps?
    Lyn, what fun that your father managed a US Boodle’s. Thanks for joining in the conversation.

    Reply
  55. Linda, your reasoning is spot on. It was because my guys don’t seem right for White’s, Brooks’s, etc that I started thinking about alternatives. As well, there is the question of who else they’d run into. Of course, they would belong to those other clubs, but they wouldn’t be their first preference for a cosy evening with friends.
    And they’d definitely keep out the riff raff! Can you imagine what a magnet a club full of rich young men would be to con-men and card-sharps?
    Lyn, what fun that your father managed a US Boodle’s. Thanks for joining in the conversation.

    Reply
  56. Aside from country clubs (mostly with swimming pools and golf courses), there aren’t many clubs in the US that have their own premises. Some, like the Daughters of the American Revolution, have national headquarters buildings, but those consist of office space for administration and, in the case of the DAR, a library. They hold their annual convention in a nearby hotel.
    As I look back at my various memberships over a half-century, they were more in the category of professional associations (American Historical Association) or hobby groups (National Genealogical Society) than English-style clubs.

    Reply
  57. Aside from country clubs (mostly with swimming pools and golf courses), there aren’t many clubs in the US that have their own premises. Some, like the Daughters of the American Revolution, have national headquarters buildings, but those consist of office space for administration and, in the case of the DAR, a library. They hold their annual convention in a nearby hotel.
    As I look back at my various memberships over a half-century, they were more in the category of professional associations (American Historical Association) or hobby groups (National Genealogical Society) than English-style clubs.

    Reply
  58. Aside from country clubs (mostly with swimming pools and golf courses), there aren’t many clubs in the US that have their own premises. Some, like the Daughters of the American Revolution, have national headquarters buildings, but those consist of office space for administration and, in the case of the DAR, a library. They hold their annual convention in a nearby hotel.
    As I look back at my various memberships over a half-century, they were more in the category of professional associations (American Historical Association) or hobby groups (National Genealogical Society) than English-style clubs.

    Reply
  59. Aside from country clubs (mostly with swimming pools and golf courses), there aren’t many clubs in the US that have their own premises. Some, like the Daughters of the American Revolution, have national headquarters buildings, but those consist of office space for administration and, in the case of the DAR, a library. They hold their annual convention in a nearby hotel.
    As I look back at my various memberships over a half-century, they were more in the category of professional associations (American Historical Association) or hobby groups (National Genealogical Society) than English-style clubs.

    Reply
  60. Aside from country clubs (mostly with swimming pools and golf courses), there aren’t many clubs in the US that have their own premises. Some, like the Daughters of the American Revolution, have national headquarters buildings, but those consist of office space for administration and, in the case of the DAR, a library. They hold their annual convention in a nearby hotel.
    As I look back at my various memberships over a half-century, they were more in the category of professional associations (American Historical Association) or hobby groups (National Genealogical Society) than English-style clubs.

    Reply
  61. I don’t have any specific suggestions, I’m afraid, but a while ago, I was researching gentlemen’s clubs myself and found this great book, Leather Armchairs, the book of London clubs by Charles Graves. It gave a detailed rundown on the history and set-up of some of the best-known clubs in London: White’s, the Garrick, the Athenaeum. Really helpful if you’re trying to find a place for your characters to hang out–or create one yourself.

    Reply
  62. I don’t have any specific suggestions, I’m afraid, but a while ago, I was researching gentlemen’s clubs myself and found this great book, Leather Armchairs, the book of London clubs by Charles Graves. It gave a detailed rundown on the history and set-up of some of the best-known clubs in London: White’s, the Garrick, the Athenaeum. Really helpful if you’re trying to find a place for your characters to hang out–or create one yourself.

    Reply
  63. I don’t have any specific suggestions, I’m afraid, but a while ago, I was researching gentlemen’s clubs myself and found this great book, Leather Armchairs, the book of London clubs by Charles Graves. It gave a detailed rundown on the history and set-up of some of the best-known clubs in London: White’s, the Garrick, the Athenaeum. Really helpful if you’re trying to find a place for your characters to hang out–or create one yourself.

    Reply
  64. I don’t have any specific suggestions, I’m afraid, but a while ago, I was researching gentlemen’s clubs myself and found this great book, Leather Armchairs, the book of London clubs by Charles Graves. It gave a detailed rundown on the history and set-up of some of the best-known clubs in London: White’s, the Garrick, the Athenaeum. Really helpful if you’re trying to find a place for your characters to hang out–or create one yourself.

    Reply
  65. I don’t have any specific suggestions, I’m afraid, but a while ago, I was researching gentlemen’s clubs myself and found this great book, Leather Armchairs, the book of London clubs by Charles Graves. It gave a detailed rundown on the history and set-up of some of the best-known clubs in London: White’s, the Garrick, the Athenaeum. Really helpful if you’re trying to find a place for your characters to hang out–or create one yourself.

    Reply
  66. What about the Four in Hand Club or the Four Horse Club mentioned by Georgette Heyer quite a bit in her books – would that not be a good one for your heroes?
    I always loved her descriptions of their rather loud ‘uniform’ and ostentatious garb…..

    Reply
  67. What about the Four in Hand Club or the Four Horse Club mentioned by Georgette Heyer quite a bit in her books – would that not be a good one for your heroes?
    I always loved her descriptions of their rather loud ‘uniform’ and ostentatious garb…..

    Reply
  68. What about the Four in Hand Club or the Four Horse Club mentioned by Georgette Heyer quite a bit in her books – would that not be a good one for your heroes?
    I always loved her descriptions of their rather loud ‘uniform’ and ostentatious garb…..

    Reply
  69. What about the Four in Hand Club or the Four Horse Club mentioned by Georgette Heyer quite a bit in her books – would that not be a good one for your heroes?
    I always loved her descriptions of their rather loud ‘uniform’ and ostentatious garb…..

    Reply
  70. What about the Four in Hand Club or the Four Horse Club mentioned by Georgette Heyer quite a bit in her books – would that not be a good one for your heroes?
    I always loved her descriptions of their rather loud ‘uniform’ and ostentatious garb…..

    Reply
  71. Virginia, I think the English style “private and exclusive hotel” type of clubs in the USA were probably established in the Victorian era and so would be limited to the older cities. But I suspect that Americans were less interested in keeping rich up-and-comers out, as the English upper classes were.
    Stephanie, thanks for the recommendation – it sounds like an excellent book. I’ll look out for it.

    Reply
  72. Virginia, I think the English style “private and exclusive hotel” type of clubs in the USA were probably established in the Victorian era and so would be limited to the older cities. But I suspect that Americans were less interested in keeping rich up-and-comers out, as the English upper classes were.
    Stephanie, thanks for the recommendation – it sounds like an excellent book. I’ll look out for it.

    Reply
  73. Virginia, I think the English style “private and exclusive hotel” type of clubs in the USA were probably established in the Victorian era and so would be limited to the older cities. But I suspect that Americans were less interested in keeping rich up-and-comers out, as the English upper classes were.
    Stephanie, thanks for the recommendation – it sounds like an excellent book. I’ll look out for it.

    Reply
  74. Virginia, I think the English style “private and exclusive hotel” type of clubs in the USA were probably established in the Victorian era and so would be limited to the older cities. But I suspect that Americans were less interested in keeping rich up-and-comers out, as the English upper classes were.
    Stephanie, thanks for the recommendation – it sounds like an excellent book. I’ll look out for it.

    Reply
  75. Virginia, I think the English style “private and exclusive hotel” type of clubs in the USA were probably established in the Victorian era and so would be limited to the older cities. But I suspect that Americans were less interested in keeping rich up-and-comers out, as the English upper classes were.
    Stephanie, thanks for the recommendation – it sounds like an excellent book. I’ll look out for it.

    Reply
  76. Caroline, the Four Horse Club was an organization, but I don’t think they had a club premises, as such. They met on regular occasions and drove in a procession through the streets, but it wasn’t an actual place where young men could go and meet and have a quiet drink. But thanks for the thought.

    Reply
  77. Caroline, the Four Horse Club was an organization, but I don’t think they had a club premises, as such. They met on regular occasions and drove in a procession through the streets, but it wasn’t an actual place where young men could go and meet and have a quiet drink. But thanks for the thought.

    Reply
  78. Caroline, the Four Horse Club was an organization, but I don’t think they had a club premises, as such. They met on regular occasions and drove in a procession through the streets, but it wasn’t an actual place where young men could go and meet and have a quiet drink. But thanks for the thought.

    Reply
  79. Caroline, the Four Horse Club was an organization, but I don’t think they had a club premises, as such. They met on regular occasions and drove in a procession through the streets, but it wasn’t an actual place where young men could go and meet and have a quiet drink. But thanks for the thought.

    Reply
  80. Caroline, the Four Horse Club was an organization, but I don’t think they had a club premises, as such. They met on regular occasions and drove in a procession through the streets, but it wasn’t an actual place where young men could go and meet and have a quiet drink. But thanks for the thought.

    Reply
  81. Hi Anne, I’m anxiously awaiting Rafe’s book and I can imagine the friends in a small exclusive London club. It could be the Wellsmen Club (after Wellsley) or the Apocalyse Club (after the 4 horsemen: I know you have more but it fits with war and death).
    Anyway, I always wanted to be in an exclusive club where drank good tea and discussed something consequential!

    Reply
  82. Hi Anne, I’m anxiously awaiting Rafe’s book and I can imagine the friends in a small exclusive London club. It could be the Wellsmen Club (after Wellsley) or the Apocalyse Club (after the 4 horsemen: I know you have more but it fits with war and death).
    Anyway, I always wanted to be in an exclusive club where drank good tea and discussed something consequential!

    Reply
  83. Hi Anne, I’m anxiously awaiting Rafe’s book and I can imagine the friends in a small exclusive London club. It could be the Wellsmen Club (after Wellsley) or the Apocalyse Club (after the 4 horsemen: I know you have more but it fits with war and death).
    Anyway, I always wanted to be in an exclusive club where drank good tea and discussed something consequential!

    Reply
  84. Hi Anne, I’m anxiously awaiting Rafe’s book and I can imagine the friends in a small exclusive London club. It could be the Wellsmen Club (after Wellsley) or the Apocalyse Club (after the 4 horsemen: I know you have more but it fits with war and death).
    Anyway, I always wanted to be in an exclusive club where drank good tea and discussed something consequential!

    Reply
  85. Hi Anne, I’m anxiously awaiting Rafe’s book and I can imagine the friends in a small exclusive London club. It could be the Wellsmen Club (after Wellsley) or the Apocalyse Club (after the 4 horsemen: I know you have more but it fits with war and death).
    Anyway, I always wanted to be in an exclusive club where drank good tea and discussed something consequential!

    Reply
  86. Sue, I love the name the Apocalypse Club. I think it suits the young men returned from war theme perfectly, as well as the devil may care approach to life some of them returned with. Thank you.

    Reply
  87. Sue, I love the name the Apocalypse Club. I think it suits the young men returned from war theme perfectly, as well as the devil may care approach to life some of them returned with. Thank you.

    Reply
  88. Sue, I love the name the Apocalypse Club. I think it suits the young men returned from war theme perfectly, as well as the devil may care approach to life some of them returned with. Thank you.

    Reply
  89. Sue, I love the name the Apocalypse Club. I think it suits the young men returned from war theme perfectly, as well as the devil may care approach to life some of them returned with. Thank you.

    Reply
  90. Sue, I love the name the Apocalypse Club. I think it suits the young men returned from war theme perfectly, as well as the devil may care approach to life some of them returned with. Thank you.

    Reply
  91. I just came across this site searching out new Author’s to read I’m a big fan of Mary Jo Putnam after taking a look at your boy’s i am adding them to my list of must fins must read.
    As for name of a gentleman”Rand Club” house my mind went to the gutter I’m afraid You must be aware of the term Randy as in randy men… you could leave of the Y and just
    call it the RAND HOUSE
    ;-} Ann

    Reply
  92. I just came across this site searching out new Author’s to read I’m a big fan of Mary Jo Putnam after taking a look at your boy’s i am adding them to my list of must fins must read.
    As for name of a gentleman”Rand Club” house my mind went to the gutter I’m afraid You must be aware of the term Randy as in randy men… you could leave of the Y and just
    call it the RAND HOUSE
    ;-} Ann

    Reply
  93. I just came across this site searching out new Author’s to read I’m a big fan of Mary Jo Putnam after taking a look at your boy’s i am adding them to my list of must fins must read.
    As for name of a gentleman”Rand Club” house my mind went to the gutter I’m afraid You must be aware of the term Randy as in randy men… you could leave of the Y and just
    call it the RAND HOUSE
    ;-} Ann

    Reply
  94. I just came across this site searching out new Author’s to read I’m a big fan of Mary Jo Putnam after taking a look at your boy’s i am adding them to my list of must fins must read.
    As for name of a gentleman”Rand Club” house my mind went to the gutter I’m afraid You must be aware of the term Randy as in randy men… you could leave of the Y and just
    call it the RAND HOUSE
    ;-} Ann

    Reply
  95. I just came across this site searching out new Author’s to read I’m a big fan of Mary Jo Putnam after taking a look at your boy’s i am adding them to my list of must fins must read.
    As for name of a gentleman”Rand Club” house my mind went to the gutter I’m afraid You must be aware of the term Randy as in randy men… you could leave of the Y and just
    call it the RAND HOUSE
    ;-} Ann

    Reply
  96. Hey, Sue, what’s a ‘p’ between friends? 😉 I am a shocking typist –hunt and peck R us.
    Ann thanks for the suggestion. In once sense I like the Rand club idea, but as well as the term randy, the rand is a monetary unit in South Africa (like the dollar), so a lot of people would think it was a South African club and to do with making money, which isn’t the right impression. It really is a tricky business, this naming of things.
    I hope you enjoy my boys. I’m not quite in MJP’s league, but I hope you have fun with them anyway. (Or am I pinching Helen’s sign off line 😉 )

    Reply
  97. Hey, Sue, what’s a ‘p’ between friends? 😉 I am a shocking typist –hunt and peck R us.
    Ann thanks for the suggestion. In once sense I like the Rand club idea, but as well as the term randy, the rand is a monetary unit in South Africa (like the dollar), so a lot of people would think it was a South African club and to do with making money, which isn’t the right impression. It really is a tricky business, this naming of things.
    I hope you enjoy my boys. I’m not quite in MJP’s league, but I hope you have fun with them anyway. (Or am I pinching Helen’s sign off line 😉 )

    Reply
  98. Hey, Sue, what’s a ‘p’ between friends? 😉 I am a shocking typist –hunt and peck R us.
    Ann thanks for the suggestion. In once sense I like the Rand club idea, but as well as the term randy, the rand is a monetary unit in South Africa (like the dollar), so a lot of people would think it was a South African club and to do with making money, which isn’t the right impression. It really is a tricky business, this naming of things.
    I hope you enjoy my boys. I’m not quite in MJP’s league, but I hope you have fun with them anyway. (Or am I pinching Helen’s sign off line 😉 )

    Reply
  99. Hey, Sue, what’s a ‘p’ between friends? 😉 I am a shocking typist –hunt and peck R us.
    Ann thanks for the suggestion. In once sense I like the Rand club idea, but as well as the term randy, the rand is a monetary unit in South Africa (like the dollar), so a lot of people would think it was a South African club and to do with making money, which isn’t the right impression. It really is a tricky business, this naming of things.
    I hope you enjoy my boys. I’m not quite in MJP’s league, but I hope you have fun with them anyway. (Or am I pinching Helen’s sign off line 😉 )

    Reply
  100. Hey, Sue, what’s a ‘p’ between friends? 😉 I am a shocking typist –hunt and peck R us.
    Ann thanks for the suggestion. In once sense I like the Rand club idea, but as well as the term randy, the rand is a monetary unit in South Africa (like the dollar), so a lot of people would think it was a South African club and to do with making money, which isn’t the right impression. It really is a tricky business, this naming of things.
    I hope you enjoy my boys. I’m not quite in MJP’s league, but I hope you have fun with them anyway. (Or am I pinching Helen’s sign off line 😉 )

    Reply
  101. Even though I am a member of White’s in London, I have been on many an occasion to Boodle’s. And yes, when I lived in Riverside CT, I used to go to Boodle’s in Greenwich on Sunday evenings. Great place. Those were the days!
    Peter Schaad, Rotterdam, The Netherlands

    Reply
  102. Even though I am a member of White’s in London, I have been on many an occasion to Boodle’s. And yes, when I lived in Riverside CT, I used to go to Boodle’s in Greenwich on Sunday evenings. Great place. Those were the days!
    Peter Schaad, Rotterdam, The Netherlands

    Reply
  103. Even though I am a member of White’s in London, I have been on many an occasion to Boodle’s. And yes, when I lived in Riverside CT, I used to go to Boodle’s in Greenwich on Sunday evenings. Great place. Those were the days!
    Peter Schaad, Rotterdam, The Netherlands

    Reply
  104. Even though I am a member of White’s in London, I have been on many an occasion to Boodle’s. And yes, when I lived in Riverside CT, I used to go to Boodle’s in Greenwich on Sunday evenings. Great place. Those were the days!
    Peter Schaad, Rotterdam, The Netherlands

    Reply
  105. Even though I am a member of White’s in London, I have been on many an occasion to Boodle’s. And yes, when I lived in Riverside CT, I used to go to Boodle’s in Greenwich on Sunday evenings. Great place. Those were the days!
    Peter Schaad, Rotterdam, The Netherlands

    Reply
  106. Thanks Peter for commenting. So you’re an international clubman — what fun.
    I was invited to join a women’s club in Melbourne and I was very tempted, but I live close to the centre of Melbourne, so it wasn’t likely I’d use it often. No matter how lovely the club, one’s own bed is more comfortable. But if I lived out of town and had to come to the city often, I’d probably have joined.

    Reply
  107. Thanks Peter for commenting. So you’re an international clubman — what fun.
    I was invited to join a women’s club in Melbourne and I was very tempted, but I live close to the centre of Melbourne, so it wasn’t likely I’d use it often. No matter how lovely the club, one’s own bed is more comfortable. But if I lived out of town and had to come to the city often, I’d probably have joined.

    Reply
  108. Thanks Peter for commenting. So you’re an international clubman — what fun.
    I was invited to join a women’s club in Melbourne and I was very tempted, but I live close to the centre of Melbourne, so it wasn’t likely I’d use it often. No matter how lovely the club, one’s own bed is more comfortable. But if I lived out of town and had to come to the city often, I’d probably have joined.

    Reply
  109. Thanks Peter for commenting. So you’re an international clubman — what fun.
    I was invited to join a women’s club in Melbourne and I was very tempted, but I live close to the centre of Melbourne, so it wasn’t likely I’d use it often. No matter how lovely the club, one’s own bed is more comfortable. But if I lived out of town and had to come to the city often, I’d probably have joined.

    Reply
  110. Thanks Peter for commenting. So you’re an international clubman — what fun.
    I was invited to join a women’s club in Melbourne and I was very tempted, but I live close to the centre of Melbourne, so it wasn’t likely I’d use it often. No matter how lovely the club, one’s own bed is more comfortable. But if I lived out of town and had to come to the city often, I’d probably have joined.

    Reply

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